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The most depressing book ever

by Xylophone @ 28. May. 2008. - 11:32:38

Thursday, 13. Dec, 2007 - 02:49:23

I've been putting off reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins because I knew what was in it, however I was recently loaned a copy by a friend and I am now dragging my feet through its 400+ pages.

As I thought, it is telling me nothing that I haven't known for many years. In fact I can barely remember a time when I didn't have reservations about the whole God thing. Even when I was 7 or 8 years old; when at school they gave us religous assemblies complete with hymns and prayers; with my mother being a Catholic believer, I can remember asking "who made God".

The "who made God" conundrum is one of the basic tenets of The God Delusion (and let's face it; it's a pretty good first line in an argument for an atheist, and a hefty 6 inch nail in the coffin for a bible basher) but it isn't exactly clever. The clever bit is that a bloke made a lot of money by stating the bleeding obvious.

Other obvious arguments Dawkins makes are:

1. There is no evidence that God is in any way 'good'. In fact, if starving children and suicide bombers weren't evidence enough, then just read some of the bits of the Bible (Old Testemant in particular) where he's a right savage bastard.

2. Darwinian evolution makes so much sense. Not to be confused with Darwinian insurance rip-offs which doesn't seem to make much sense at all.

3. Praying gets you nowhere. Except if you're a bit crafty: ie don't pray to God for a bike, instead pinch a bike first and then pray for forgiveness.

It's not that I disapprove of Richard Dawkins, far from it. His book, The Blind Watchmaker is a superb description of how evolution happens and is well worth reading even if you think you understand the mechanism. It's just that, well I'm not sure if spreading the message of atheism is all that great an idea.

Sure, if a few suicide bombers, or the lunatic creationists in the USA, or the mad Jews who think it's a good idea to set up a country on someone else's land so that we can all have a jolly good hate and perpetual wars against our neighbours, or the Shi'ites and Sunnis or the Catholics and Protestants....etc... IF they were to read this book, then it may suddenly dawn on them what twits they really are and they might stop causing so much suffering. But it aint going to happen. The thick gits are more likely to buy a 100 copies and burn them in the streets than actually read one.

So that leaves us athiest to read what to us has been pretty bloody obvious for many years. And that's my problem.

You see, being an athiest isn't easy. In fact it must be the worst thing in the world. Only us athiest know we're going to die. We have to live each day with the knowledge that our lives are just a flash of light in between two vast darknesses and hence, pointless. If you're an athiest you'll know what I mean. If you're agnostic, you'll have your doubts too. If you're religous then you'll be wanting to spout something like "let God into your life", to which I would say, "no thanks, I've heard enough about your religion to know that there's more sense in the Beano than in your holy book".

What I need from a book about atheism is something along the lines of "This whole God thing is a load of bollocks and we're all going to die, but its okay because......"

Of course I have no idea what comes next because from where I'm standing it all seems so very very depressing. On the plus side, I still have 200 pages left to read, maybe it will turn out to have a happy ending after all :D Keep yer chin up!


 
 

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DominicGeeDominicGee [Member]
2008-05-28 @ 11:51

I read a couple of pages of the book and read reviews and they all said the same; that he wasn't saying anything new and that he was preaching to the choir ('scuse the analogy).
However:
"Sure, if a few suicide bombers, or the lunatic creationists in the USA, or the mad Jews who think it's a good idea to set up a country on someone else's land so that we can all have a jolly good hate and perpetual wars against our neighbours, or the Shi'ites and Sunnis or the Catholics and Protestants....etc... IF they were to read this book, then it may suddenly dawn on them what twits they really are and they might stop causing so much suffering."

Modern conflicts (and most of the past ones) have not been religious. Do you believe that the majority of Muslims are terrorists? No, I don't think you do. So who causes wars? Governments cause wars, not religions. Look at all the conflicts - even the ones that purport to be religious ones - are political.
This explains our suprise and inability to react correctly towards 'jihad' because actually most wars have been about any of the following: Land, Race, Money (resources), Personalities.
For this reason I agree that just like forcing religion upon people is wrong, there is no inherent justification in preaching aethiesm either - it won't change a thing.
And for the record, the Crusades had the appearance of religious wars but was actually closer to a peace-keeping interventionist action (the Christians were not simply invading Muslim territory, they were trying to get the Muslims out of the 'Holy Land' who had recently invaded. They went there to protect the Christians who had been living there for sometime (it did after all originate in that place) and their interests - in the context of the age it wasn't really unjustified).
The closest we've come to religious wars recently in my opinion has been the clash of ideologies of Communism, Capitalism and Nationalism - all ideologies that either ignores, denies or relegates any God-like figure.
The problem lies in our flawed politics - to regard religion as the problem I think is looking in the wrong direction - it is a fallacy (and maybe a politicians evil plan??) to think that it is human religion that causes these problems, after all we have achieved greatness so far and it is only in the last century that secularism in the West has become institutionalized.

Thoughts?

XylophoneXylophone [Member]
2008-05-28 @ 13:05

Nicely argued points there.

I agree with you that wars are generally started over things other than religion but to get a good war going you need differences. Religion is usually the difference that politicians use to divide us.

Wheras leaders may not be doing it for God, I would say that most soldiers throughout the centuries have killed in the belief that what they are doing is God's will.

The trick is not so much preaching atheism but preaching that if God does exist then he has his lightening bolts and he really doesn't need you to go blowing yourself up on a tube train.

DominicGeeDominicGee [Member]
2008-05-28 @ 14:25

Yes Religion is a difference that divides us, but I think they sincerely are there as an attempt to unite us and transend all our physical human worries. But religions are human and as such get caught up in all our usual vices.
In the same way governments are our own creation that has very good intentions but whose nature is often brutal and unfair.

I don't think there is enough evidence to say that soldiers through history thought they were doing the will of God. I think that in the vast majority of cases soldiers were either conscripts (of some ruling power), attempting to stay alive or keep their family alive (as long as you weren't killed it was a decent proffession), protecting their homeland/family/business or just making money at something they were good at - mercenaries have existed for as long as any other type of soldier (is there any other type?).

The question as to why God allows pain and suffering to exist in the world will take more than the few lines that will be read here, and besides I don't have the time to get into it. The person below has touched on it but I shall just say that Proof is not a pre-condition of existence - I think that is putting too high a value on our own experiences and as you say, we are just a mere blip in the mystery that is existence.

I am not advocating either belief, only to say that neither is stronger than the other in my view (being of course perfectly objective). Also, considering all the things that have 'been done in the name' of religion and the pain and suffering in this world, being a believer is not easy either.

some1elsesome1else [Member]
2008-05-28 @ 12:48

Hey, may I start this comment by saying that all my questions are asked in the tone of innocent naivity, and not rhetorical arrogance, so if you have answers to any or all of them, please let me know. Also, in that same thought, I'm not trying to change what people think/believe, just ask some questions.

Firstly, doesn't the Bible address the whole 'God wasn't created, he (and I use that pronoun out of convenience :) ) just is' thing, and it's just the case that our tiny minds can't comprehend such things? Secondly, I'll switch to corresponding numbers for ease:

1. Aren't starving children and suicide bombers the doings of mankind? I mean God could intervene, but he allowed us free will to choose to love him, or not, and it's just a (rather terrible) consequence of that? And - with perhaps a smidgen of rhetoric slipping in here (if I've used that word correctly) - how does one justify using words from the Old Testemant as possible truth and ignoring the rest of the Bible, the New Testemant in particular, being surprisingly full of eye witness accounts?

2. Doesn't evolution have its flaws? And even if it turned out to be perfect, this wouldn't disprove the existence of a God would it, just show him to be a perfect being, having created it all?
Also, I like the idea of (and I hope it's obvious this is a possibility of many, and not something I claim to have reasonable backing for) the world having been created to fit exactly into the evolution cycle. Kind of like a clone of a sheep being - by all known scientific experiments - found to be the age of the original sheep, but in fact having only been created the day before - if you understand what I mean :).

3. On this one I can only express surprise that you have no one among your acquaintances (that you respect enough to believe) who has witnessed a miracle through prayer.

Anyway, that's blatantly a comment that is far too long, so I'll finish on a personal note and say that for me, I wouldn't be able to cope with the depression that being an athiest would bring with it. For me, it's all about the hope (and love and faith, but you know what I mean :) ).

Cheers to anyone who got this far.

XylophoneXylophone [Member]
2008-05-29 @ 10:52

May I recommend the same author's "The Blind Watchmaker"? Whilst not being so overtly athiest, it does deal with the nuts and bolts of evolution in a way that should convince most open minded people.

some1elsesome1else [Member]
2008-05-29 @ 11:35

Thanks. Unfortunately I don't have access to books written in English at the moment, but I have flagged the email with your comment. You don't by any chance know if it mentions why a human's bodyclock is longer than 24hours do you? I know that's a fairly random question, but it's een nagging me for a while and I've had a quick browse on the internet, but amidst all the scientific experiments/proof/suggestions etc., I can't find a reason why. Just thought I'd ask :)

Thanks again.

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